Phatty vs Prodigy vs Rogue

martin · Post by **martin** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:02 am

Hi

How does the Little Phatty compare to the other 2-osc Synthesizers (such as the Rogue and the Prodigy)?

I used to own a Rogue and loved its low bass sounds and also the filter gargle it could do. Can the Phatty also do that trig-trick whereby it goes bing-bing-bing-bing etc?

Martin

eric coleridge · Post by **eric coleridge** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:38 pm

You could manually gate it to do that trick by feeding it's "gate in" an LFO or other repetetive pulse signal....

I just finnaly played the LP for the first time a couple weeks ago at a Sam Ash (or something) here in NY. I was astounded at how great it sounds. I think it is far superior to either Prodigy or (especially)Rogue. It's different.... it's fuller, "phatter" if you will, which isn't always a good thing to me. But it also has alot of grit that I don't here in the Voyager, which really blew me away. It sounds like an analog synth should. Not neccesarily vintage exactly, but just as good...

I personnaly hate other aspects of it, such as the LCD screen, etc, so I probably would never buy one. But I was amazed by it's tone. As rich (or moreso) as any other Moog, besides the Mini...

thewaag · Post by **thewaag** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:52 pm

eric coleridge wrote:I just finnaly played the LP for the first time a couple weeks ago at a Sam Ash (or something) here in NY. I was astounded at how great it sounds. I think it is far superior to either Prodigy or (especially)Rogue. It's different.... it's fuller, "phatter" if you will, which isn't always a good thing to me. But it also has alot of grit that I don't here in the Voyager, which really blew me away. It sounds like an analog synth should. Not neccesarily vintage exactly, but just as good...

I personnaly hate other aspects of it, such as the LCD screen, etc, so I probably would never buy one. But I was amazed by it's tone. As rich (or moreso) as any other Moog, besides the Mini...

Boy, Eric! You are a tough sell. You admit that the LP sound "blew you away", you think that it is "far superior to either Prodigy or Rogue", it's sounds "astounded" you and you were "amazed" by it's tone, and you say that the LP sounds "like an analog synth should".

But you probably won't buy one because of the LCD screen????

Whew! What more do you want??

martin · Post by **martin** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:28 pm

I personnaly hate other aspects of it, such as the LCD screen

do you find it hard to read or is it just because of the fact that it's there and makes it non-vintagey?

to me, the little screeny on the little phatty looks like a digital watchy, which i'd classify under "geeky" but it doesn't bother me aesthetically. in fact i think it looks better than the display on the voyager which is a bit puny for the size of that instrument.

hm. "little geeky" is not such a terrible name for it.

eric coleridge · Post by **eric coleridge** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:56 am

thewaag wrote: But you probably won't buy one because of the LCD screen????
Whew! What more do you want??

What?, do you work for Moog Music or something? javascript:emoticon(':)')
But seriously, I don't mean to insult anyone's favorite new synth...

I am a hard sell, because I don't have alot of expendable income and I don't like like wasting money on products that don't suit my needs. If someone gave it to me for free, I'd love to have one... but for $1200-$1500 you can buy nearly any synth ever made.

I just don't like LCD screens on musical instruments. It just seems fundementally wrong to me. To me, it looks like a gimmic.

It's not so much about keeping it "vintage" looking... but more about it's usefulness. I can understand that a read-out of some kind saves space as oppossed to a bunch of dedicated buttons for each patch location--- but an LED (as oppossed to LCD)readout would be better (like the bright red LED window on the Moog Source)... LCD screens look cheap to me (like a cheap ten dollar digital watch... or cheap cell phone--before they had color screens).

It's useless to me because I don't see any point in having ridiculous names for each patch... it's too prefabricated... it's a sound and patch flow memory---not a silly novelty song. It's too conotative.
It probably has other functions, but I don't need them either.

I don't like it on the Voyager or the LP.

And that's not the only thing I dislike about it--- I just didn't see any need to trash the LP...
but if you're asking...

I also wouldn't buy a synth without dedicated knobs. This is very important to me... more than the silly LED screen.

For instance, I think the Source is one of the coolest looking synths ever designed (and it probably sounds good too)... it's so colorful and unique... but it's interface is a joke...

The whole point of analog synths, to me, is sound shaping in real time... morphing sounds with a bunch of (somewhat)repeatable parameters...
You take away the knobs... and it's like playing a guitar with a remote control... the guitar may still make the same sounds... you may still be able to get the same phrases... but you've lost most all tactile sense of actually "playing"... it's boring, passionless... and pointless. The opposite of what instruments mean to me...

Of course it still has a keyboard... but you may as well be playing a DX-7...

I feel like the LP interface is far better with 4 knobs than the Source's 1-- this was clear to me after playing it. But it's not good enough for me when there's better options for the same price.

I also don't love the way it looks... but that's the least of my issues.

It sounds great, yes, I totally agree, but for that amount of money you can buy a MiniMoog or two Arp Odysseys... or an MS20...

Old synths are not as unreliable as some people would have you believe... 99% of the problems with old synths, I've found, are just minor issues like cleaning/replacing pots and cleaning keyboard contacts. I've owned tons of old analog synths (and bought many for near nothing--even recently-- because the keyboard wouldn't play--just needed to be cleaned-- and the owner thought the synth was "broken"), and NONE have just stopped working for no reason. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Knobs and jacks get scratchy, or like I said, keyboards stop working... but all you have to do is clean them. If a synth has been sitting in a basement for a few years or more, and hasn't been turned on, components might start to go bad...but if it works when you buy it, chances are it will keep working. believe it or not...

thewaag · Post by **thewaag** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:32 am

Eric,

When I look at the LCD screen on the LP it looks pretty small to me, but to each their own.

I can totally understand your desire for one knob per function. Unfortunately, the LP would cost twice as much if it had this feature. I agree with you when you say the the Source interface is a joke. It is fine to work with when you are setting up a patch, but trying to find out what the settings are on a preset on a Source is a nightmare. The knobs on the LP make it much easier. I must say that I don't dislike the multiple function knobs on the LP as much as I thought I would because they are so easy to read, and it is easy to change from one funtion to another with the buttons (and easy to follow along because the buttons light up, unlike the Source).

Not too sure where you would find a Mini for the cost of a Phatty--most I see that are decent at all are going for a minimum of $2,000 and usually higher than that these days.

As far as reliability on old synths, my old Mini is still working like a trooper, but my Source is getting kind of buggy. I just had it in the shop last summer and it picked up a new problem with wave function and shows signs of Crazy Source Syndrome. I gave away another Source years ago when the touch pad gave out (this was before they started offering new touch pads on the web). On another thread on this forum Kevin Lightner says that parts for these old synths are fast disappearing and in some cases there are no substitutes. I am not capable of working on my own synths so this type of thing makes me nervous. I even bought a second Mini D to use for spare parts, until I sold it to fund the new LP and a new mixer.

I bet if you spent more time with an LP you would eventually fall in love. My Mini D and Source are beginning to feel a bit neglected since the LP moved into the house.

What does worry me about the LP LCD is that as they add more and more features in the OS (which is a good thing) you will have to dig into multiple depth menues to pot map and use the new features. This is a drag and is a turn off to me when using my Andromeda. It will take away some of the intuitive use ease of the LP. Not much else Moog can do though.....

As far as working for Moog...... I am such a fan that you would probably think that I do. My wife had a custom made Moog jacket made for me for Christmas (I got Moogs permission to use their logo). I wear it everywhere, and when I walked into a Moog dealer with it on, they thought I was a rep. When I told them that I came to recall a Voyager because of a safety hazard, they gave it up to me very easily....

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!

eric coleridge · Post by **eric coleridge** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:09 pm

thewaag wrote:Eric,
Not too sure where you would find a Mini for the cost of a Phatty--most I see that are decent at all are going for a minimum of $2,000 and usually higher than that these days.

I've found in the past year, Mini's have been routinely selling on e-bay for $1500 and under. I bought mine, a low seriel #, 1972 model in very good functional and cosmetic condition (of course this is relative), for $1200 including shipping. This was about 5 months ago. If you're willing to spend some time looking for the right one, maybe one that needs a little more work, you can get them even cheaper.

Most people probably wouldn't want to put this much time and effort into shopping for a synth, but I'm kind of cheap... and I also just enjoy searching and learning about all of the different models, etc... and then finding the perfect instrument for my needs.

thewaag wrote: As far as reliability on old synths, my old Mini is still working like a trooper, but my Source is getting kind of buggy.

In my experience, the purely analog synths like a Mini or Odyssey or MS20, without any digital interface or other digital circuitry, are both more reliable and far easier to fix.

The Source, having this whole second teir of digital circuitry (above and beyond the purely analog sound producing circuitry) is a prime example. Unfortunately, it is likely that the LP and Voyager will both probably also fall into this somewhat trouble inclnied hybrid category.

Digital circuitry is far more sensitive to ageing and prone to failure than robust discrete analog components.

Of course, the LP, being new, probably won't have much trouble for a long time... hopefully.

thewaag wrote: On another thread on this forum Kevin Lightner says that parts for these old synths are fast disappearing and in some cases there are no substitutes. I am not capable of working on my own synths so this type of thing makes me nervous.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for Mr. Lightner, and wouldn't presume to challange any of his well researched and experienced opinions. However, you have to remember that he is a synth tech by profession and forms opinions from this point of veiw and not from the point of veiw of a synth user. All he ever sees is broken down or otherwise dysfunctional synths.

I've been playing and gigging with analog synths for more than 15 years, and from my point of veiw they are not significantly less reliable or prone to failure than any other instrument. They require maintenance and attention as is true of any professional instrument or precision calibrated machine.

As for parts becoming obsolete, all I can say is that it's never been a problem for me. My knowledge of synth repair is only at a novice level compared to Mr Lightner, and I say that with all due repect to his time and experience, but the only obsolete parts that I know of are Curtis and SSM chips used in 80s polyphonic synths. I'm sure there are others, but I am somewhat familiar with monophonic Arps, Moogs and Korgs (these are my favorites, and the ones I use) and I've only heard of one op-amp chip used on early MiniMoogs that is obsolete and hard to substitute. But even when the part becomes obsolete, it's still largely available (especially in the age of internet sales)and merely costs more.

This may or may not change in the future... but I feel like some aspect of this idea that these instruments are particularly hard to service, or use parts that are extremely rare, hard to find, and expensive is somewhat uncessarily perpeptuated by those who might stand to benifit by the idea. I'm not saying this is why Kevin is saying it, I'm sure he has reasons that are beyond my scope of knowledge...But just to level the argument a little I offer my opinion...

thewaag wrote: I bet if you spent more time with an LP you would eventually fall in love. My Mini D and Source are beginning to feel a bit neglected since the LP moved into the house.

No, I played it long enough to know that I think it's a great synth. I like it better, and think it sounds better than the Voyager (which I also know to be a great synth).
I like the LP's simplicity and aggresive spirit, which are classic Moog traits.
But for the reasons I outlined, I know it's not right for me.
I like my synths more like testing equipment, and less like keyboards. Which is why I love the Odyssey, MS20, and many Moog products.

[/b]

electrical_engineer_gEEk · Post by **electrical_engineer_gEEk** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:33 pm

eric coleridge wrote:Old synths are not as unreliable as some people would have you believe... 99% of the problems with old synths, I've found, are just minor issues like cleaning/replacing pots and cleaning keyboard contacts. I've owned tons of old analog synths (and bought many for near nothing--even recently-- because the keyboard wouldn't play--just needed to be cleaned-- and the owner thought the synth was "broken"), and NONE have just stopped working for no reason. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Knobs and jacks get scratchy, or like I said, keyboards stop working... but all you have to do is clean them. If a synth has been sitting in a basement for a few years or more, and hasn't been turned on, components might start to go bad...but if it works when you buy it, chances are it will keep working. believe it or not...

Eric,
I completely agree with most of this post you made.....but this last part regarding repair I have to say that I don't agree at all...

eric coleridge · Post by **eric coleridge** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:05 pm

electrical_engineer_gEEk wrote: I completely agree with most of this post you made.....but this last part regarding repair I have to say that I don't agree at all...

Not because I think you're wrong, but simply so that I may learn, I'm curious to know why you disagree?

I guess, I'm being a bit simplistic: I realize that tantalum caps, and power supplies also tend to entropy even under the best conditions.

But these are also simple straight forward fixes that neither require specialized training to repair or are areas where there is much of any danger of needing obsolete, or otherwise rare, parts. No?

In my limited experience, most all of the parts typically used in many VCOs, VCFs, VCAs (in other words, ubiquitous circuits on synths) are usually common and plentiful.

I know that on some Korgs, for instance, there is a propriatary Korg35 chip used in some filters and VCAs, but I also know that these chips are being manufactured again by synth heads and are newly available.

I don't have a lot of experience with Rolands, but on the Korgs, Moogs and Arps I've used and maintained-- I've otherwise only found that they use commonly available parts...

Tangsonghe · Post by **Tangsonghe** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:07 pm

A good point has been raised here. With so many presents
on synths, the synth programming is not often part of a
performance. I agree with the idea that more knobs and
not saving a patch might give another dimension to synth
playing. I have a friend who does very good performances with a
Pro-1 - the kind where 1 key is pressed and dozens of knobs
turned for an hour whilst dozens of artists scribble away furiously.
He is one of the best synth players I've heard and yet he can't
play scales!

Eric, could you please tell me more about obtaining second hand minimoogs. What to look for etc. I have been thinking about
buying an LP for my 30th but I heard a Minimoog recently and it
seemed to 'speak' to me! I've always been daunted by ebay bidding
wars.

You'd be shocked by my synth collection - a mix of very low budget,
despite playing in several bands - Alesis Ion, Roland SH32, DX200
and possibly more acceptable - a paia 9700 modular with an exact replica of a tb303 (minus sequencer) that I built parked on top.

I have to admit that despite all the knobs, very little happens sonically when I fire up my Ion. I find the sound rather dull and I tend to have more luck with the SH32 (despite the horrible steppy filter). Thus I am looking for
a keyboard synth that will give me what the Ion couldn't......

eric coleridge · Post by **eric coleridge** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:07 pm

Tangsonghe wrote: Eric, could you please tell me more about obtaining second hand minimoogs. What to look for etc. I have been thinking about
buying an LP for my 30th but I heard a Minimoog recently and it
seemed to 'speak' to me! I've always been daunted by ebay bidding
wars.

Yeah, I had the same experience. To me the MiniMoog's sound is otherworldly and impossible to describe--- must be heard/played in person to appreciate.

It's hard to give advice on this endeavor-- I looked for mine for over a year before buying. It sounds crazy, but I usually just go by a feeling. I had the luxury of finding mine outside of e-bay, on another Moog forum actually-- and had the chance to get to talk to the owner at an unusual length before buying it...

This is obviously an unusual situation-- and it's unlikely that you will find the same situation unless you're willing to wait a very long time for it...

But I can offer you this: MiniMoog are the oldest analog synths you can buy, because they were the first commercial "combo" synth-keyboards. So, of course, most all of them you'll find will be in different levels of disrepair. But as I was writing above, many of problems you'll encounter are not as serious as they may first appear. So, I think it's best to try and find the least expensive one that still produces sound, and is at a cosmetic level that you are comfortable with.

If you don't mind learning to do some basic maintenance procedures, which are not that difficult, you can likely get most everything working again on your new MiniMoog-- at a very reasonable price.

To me, $1500 for a good working Mini is a great deal. When I began thinking of buying one, they never sold below $2000 in any kind of working condition-- and a fully working model could easily sell for $3000 and more. Lately, however, I've seen ones that look and are described to be in good condition on e-bay selling closer to $1500. So, if you can swing that, you may not even have to worry about much initial repair. But, don't forget that these are very old machines and even if the seller doesn't know, they may have various issues.

My point is, especially if you really love this instrument, it's well worth the possible maintenance issues (which, in most cases, aren't that big a deal).

Other than that, there are alot of different subtle variations of Minimoogs models as they were produced over a 10 year period. You can find a ton of this info at the "Lords of the MiniMoog" website.