remaking the rhodes piano/moog?

[goldphinga]

over on the rhodes list at yahoo groups many of the members have been waiting for a new lightweight version of the rhodes with midi and several posts from people now claiming to own the rhodes name lead us to believe that this could happen. i want to find out from moog forum memebers whether they think there would be a demand for such an instrument and if they think moog should back such a venture and make a new rhodes style piano. i think moog is one of the few companies left that could corner this market again as they have the resources to produce such an instrument. also, all the parts to build this piano are now readily available. i reckon a moog badged tine based electric piano with midi and of a sensible weight would sell like crazy.

[MC]

I'll pass on a Rhodes piano reissue, no thanks.

I used to own a Rhodes years ago. I am a piano player and it hurt my hands to play that Rhodes, the action was so spongy. Very unique sound if used in a solo setting or in fusion - but the minute you add guitars it gets hopelessly smothered and will not cut through. A Wurlitzer did a better job of fitting into a band mix.

Even if a lightweight MIDI version were to be made, I would not buy one. They're redundant, there are plenty of ROMplers that do a great Rhodes impersonation. Rhodes' last great fling at a lightweight piano was the Mark V, and that was still heavy. 73 keys, hammers, and metal tines will still be heavy.

I acknowledge that nothing is as responsive and expressive as the real deal, but consider the Voyager vs simulations - they are further apart than Rhodes vs simulations. It is a lot harder to emulate analog synths, there are many more real time modulations on the timbre than there are on a Rhodes.

Now a 73/64 key version of the Pianobar for Rhodes/Wurlitzer - that would sell better.

[sundaeclubber]

i reckon a moog badged tine based electric piano with midi and of a sensible weight would sell like crazy.

As a real piano technician I can tell you that this would be an expensive thing to produce. You'd be better off sticking a PianoBar on a genuine Rhodes (you'd need an Eighty Eight) or for a neater job, track down one of the Technics/Woodchester units (see my reply to http://moogmusic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3 ) and get that installed professionally in a Rhodes. My CP80 is to be thus fitted. I'll tell you how I get on!

Reducing the weight of a Rhodes would result in a poorer sound, unless those weight reductions were limited to the casework. This in turn could lead to a vulnerable and easily damageable instrument.

[sundaeclubber]

Now a 73/64 key version of the Pianobar for Rhodes/Wurlitzer - that would sell better.

Now that'd be useful!!

[goldphinga]

i'm surprised at the response to the idea of a new lighweight rhodes.every player i know is after a decent lightweight version and are sick of using tritons,motifs,evp88. mc thats pathetic! the rhodes hurt your hands with a spongy action???? its either bad technique or a badly setup rhodes or both! i'll tell u this- the rhodes sits in a mix better than a wurli which sticks out like an acoustic piano does,this can be good or bad depending what you are after. however being a rhodes player none of the emulations are that good and to the contrary its harder to emulate a rhodes than an analog synth. plugin synths get much closer than the ep plugins. the problem is nobody really cares about being a true expert at their instrument anymore, and i for one don't want to play an emulation either on stage or in the studio. i want a new real rhodes and more instruments like the voyager which have that real quality to them, they connect with u and the audience in a way that the plugins don't. my ears switch off straight away when i hear people trying to solo with stodgy midi controller boards and rhodes emulations where u can hear that nasty plastic bark when u play harder and that dull lifeless sound when u play softly. the only emulations that sound good enough are the b3 ones.

[peter ripa]

[MC]

Goldfinga, I knew Rhodes technique as I had been playing on them for years. My high school had one and I bought my own later. My guess is that it was a particular production run with that spongy key action, I've heard complaints from other Rhodes players.

Now that I think about it, I did play another Rhodes years later and that one had better action. When I looked closer, it had solid wood keys; the one I had years ago had hollow keymolds glued to wooden key actuators. I would never buy one off ebay, I'd have to play them before I buy.

Today I use a Kurzweil 1000PX for Rhodes - that is one of the better ones and I've heard many emulations.

Here's a tip - if you want that hard struck honky tone with lots of bark, look for an early Rhodes/Fender Rhodes with wood end supports for the harp assembly. Later Rhodes used extruded aluminum for the harp support. That changed the sound, aluminum made the sound mellow, wood makes it honkier. You can feel the sound resonate through the case, so it does have an impact.

Most Rhodes on ebay include pics where you can see the harp support at the ends. All the Fender Rhodes had wood ends, and I've seen some Rhodes with them too.

[miket156]

Like any authentic re-issue, it would be expensive to duplicate. I own a 1979 Suitcase Rhodes that I bought brand new and its in excellent condition. When I used it for live playing, I used cases for it, so I kept it in great shape. There's always going to pro's and con's on using the original or using a rompler. Personally, I think the suitcase Rhodes sounds great in my music room, but I wouldn't think about moving it around ever again. There is a certain character the genuine article has, with built in vibrato and separate controls for treble and bass as well as controls for the vibrato.

I think the way you're going to use a Rhodes sound in a keyboard rig, and playing it live in today's world warrants using a Rompler like a Yamaha Motif ES8 instead of hauling around a Rhodes that really can't be replaced. You can say that the Motif or any other rompler really isn't the same thing, and of course it isn't, but then I can get just about any Rhodes sound ever produced at the push of a button. This is critical for live use. As much as I love my 1979 Rhodes, that's what it sounds like. I've used a Chorus as well as a Phase shifter on my Rhodes and that will give you some variety, but I prefer to let it sit safely in my music room to enjoy.

I'm happy to have both an original Rhodes for playing at home, and a Motif ES to use live with just about every Rhodes sound I could ever need on board.


Mike T.

[ebg31]

Somehow, I'm convinced that manufacturing and designing have taken a few forward steps, since the mid-to-early '80's. And, the more frequently I hear the digital simulations, the more I wish they'd at least give half-a-moment's thought to revamping the classic Rhodes design and start re-producing it.

Even though it's sometimes tempting to accept the simulations in Motifs, Tritons, Fantoms and K2600's, I just find the sound too damn clean. Who wants a Rhodes that you DON'T have to tune? That's not a Rhodes. Not to mention, there are still many players that gig out with an organ, a Wurly, a Rhodes, a Clavinet and one (if not two) vintage synthesizer(s). It'd definitely be worth it for someone (like Moog) to try to produce an all-new electro-acoustic piano with "near-identical" sound-generating technology to the original Rhodes line.

Each time I've used a real Rhodes piano, I've really enjoyed it, even though the action was a bit tough. Well worth it, though. Nothing comes close.

[miket156]

I guess you can say that romplers sound too damn digital or too clean, but when I used my Rhodes live, I always plugged it into my PA so I could EQ it to "get the mud out". It sounded great coming through a properly EQ'ed sound system with my JBL speakers. It sounded a lot CLEANER, it didn't wash out in the mix, and people could actually hear it.

A jazz player would be a lot pickier than anyone in a rock group. I've seen trios with Organ/Rhodes, a bass player and drums, and the Rhodes sounded really great in that context. Once it gets to loud, you won't hear it. The Rhodes is a very mellow instrument and it doesn't really cut through in rock groups like other keyboards.

Frankly, I'm willing to give up the mud, maintenance, as well as the weight on a Rhodes for a cleaner sound on my Motif ES. I've also heard Rhodes clones that I wouldn't think of using either, so it depends on what you're using and how you're using it. To each his own.

Mike T.

[ebg31]

That's what I always liked about 80's recordings by Michael Jackson, Sergio Mendez, Whitney Houston, Laura Branigan, Wham! and others. They took the same pianos used by the Jazzers in the 70's and managed (with up-to-date amplification and processing) to make it blend in well in the mix, without getting lost, altogether.

Some specific examples include "Solitare," "The Lucky One," "Never Gonna Let You Go," "Didn't We Almost Have It All," "The Girl is Mine" and "Careless Whispers."

On a different pitch - I mean note - one thing to re-consider is the Rhodes' use as a rhythm instrument. I've heard several recordings where the thing wasn't used for solo lines per se, but if you took it out of the mix, the rhythm dropped away. It may not have the automatic punch of other boards of its time, but it sure adds a lot to the "underpinning."

[goldphinga]

A lot of the Rhodes heard on Michael Jackson stuff and 80's albums was the Mk v (i think!)which was Harold Rhodes ultimate vision (at the time) of the Rhodes piano.It had a larger hammer throw and faster action and had a more bell like tone compared to the earlier Rhodes models hence it sounded brighter and thinner and fitted better in a crowded mix.Obviously the Mkv could still be set up to the players taste in terms of tone and volume.

p.s for any Rhodes lovers out there we should be getting a new Rhodes piano in the next year or so thats lightweight and has a midi out,but is till based on the old design of tines with pickups etc.Info can be found on the Yahoo rhodes list or at badrat.com.